Hangout 9/25: Kerbal Space Problems

By Shamus Posted Tuesday Sep 22, 2015

Filed under: Notices 90 comments

This Friday at 6pm eastern AMERICA TIME’America time’ is like ‘regular time’, except it occasionally moves forward or backward an hour according to a system that’s harder to understand than American Football. (Handegg.) we’ll be having a hangout where Josh will play Kerbal Space Program for our amusement. This will be his first time playing the game, so I hope you aren’t squeamish about watching adorable little Kerbals die in a violent conflagration of steel and burning jet fuel.

Here’s a countdown to the event, which SHOULD be localized to your timezone so you don’t have to do the conversion yourself:

I’ll have a post with the links to the stream as the hour approaches.

Wear a seatbelt. And a helmet.

 

Footnotes:

[1] ’America time’ is like ‘regular time’, except it occasionally moves forward or backward an hour according to a system that’s harder to understand than American Football. (Handegg.)



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90 thoughts on “Hangout 9/25: Kerbal Space Problems

  1. krellen says:

    Ah, the trend of scheduling these during my RPG sessions returns. Yay normalcy.

    1. Sleeping Dragon says:

      To my surprise I can actually make it to this one! Not only does my constantly shifting schedule give me a free Friday this week but my RPG group is otherwise occupied on this particular one. If I count correctly it also happens on either 11pm or midnight for me, which is a reasonable time on my day off. Guess I’m gonna watch me some fiery death before bed!

    2. tzeneth says:

      I get this 2 hours before my normal start time for a Friday gaming session. Good thing as the GM I am completely not going to be making up everything and have it actually planned out, unlike my normal weeks where I don’t have a full plan until the hour before the game starts (usually ideas but fully fleshed out plans. Don’t use rules heavy systems usually).

    3. Aulayan says:

      And while I work! Also I’m pretty sure at this point your RPG schedule is 24/7/365 (You get one day of non-RPGing every 4 years)

  2. The Rocketeer says:

    Oooooh the antici

      1. Ravens Cry says:

        Let’s do the Time Warp Again!
        Because, seriously, otherwise this is going to take freaking forever.

  3. Da Mage says:

    Love Kerbal……but can’t stand watching someone play it who has never played it before. They just end up spending most of the time struggling with the interface and controls, before just blowing up Kerbals over and over. Fun for the person playing sure, (since that’s how we all started)…..but dull for anyone with a deeper understanding of the game mechanics, so I’m going to pass on this one.

    And if the other ‘beginner’ streams of Kerbel I’ve seen before, the chat tends to go a bit crazy/mean (especially if you have random browsers dropping in to watch), so be ready to do some moderating if you get idiots hurling abuse.

    Also, what is AMERICA time? since don’t you have 3 times zones?

    1. Falterfire says:

      Eastern AMERICAN time means Eastern Daylight Time or Eastern Standard Time depending on whether daylight savings time is on. Right now it is, so Eastern Daylight Time (EDT).

      1. Da Mage says:

        Oops, I missed the ‘eastern’ part.

        Time is pretty simple here though…no silly daylight savings, time is always +10 ahead of UK.

        1. MichaelGC says:

          Aye – well, in the UK we also do the daylight savings do-si-do, so strictly you’re always +10 hours on GMT (Greenwich Mean Time (Greenwich of course being in the UK, just to complicate matters…)), or UTC (Universal Coordinated Time – which is like Greenwich Mean Time but better in ways I am ignorant of (although probably not mentioning Greenwich is a good start)).

          I like China’s approach myself – one massive country, one timezone, no do-si-dos.

          1. Taellosse says:

            The problem with China’s method is that it IS a massive country, and large swaths of it end up having real problems with the fact that the sun is rising and setting completely out of sync with their days, which messes with everyone’s circadian rhythms.

            Daylight savings is an antiquated, moronic system, but time zones have a real purpose and value – we ignore them to our own detriment.

            1. Zak McKracken says:

              I am living completely out of sync with the sun anyway … and how could I, given that some days are only 6 hours long, and some nights, too, yet my working day has the same length all year…

            2. Kylroy says:

              India did the same thing, but since the country is approximately one time zone wide, it works. They straddle two existing time zones, so they just split the difference to put the entire country 30 minutes off the rest of the globe.

              1. Lachlan the Mad says:

                South Australia and the Northern Territory (basically the middle third of Australia) are also offset by 30 minutes; you take the clock 30 minutes backwards when you cross into them from the east, or 1 hr 30 minutes forwards when you cross into them from the west. I believe it’s GMT+9:30 when daylight saving isn’t on. This is because, even though South Australia is more or less in the middle of a time zone, the vast majority of its settlement is in the east, so it’s more accurate to the sun if you offset only by 30 minutes instead of 1 hour. The Northern Territory just follows South Australia’s lead, even though most of its settlements are centred, because its population is so small.

                That said, I believe that they’ve started polling people asking if they want to change time zones, and most of them want to move to GMT+10:00 to be in sync with Sydney.

            3. Daemian Lucifer says:

              Not in a modern day.Nothing is stopping the world to have a single unified time zone with every country having its jobs start at different times.It would make no difference if you were working 09-17 or 21-05.The only problem would be the adjustment period between current stupid mesh and that sensible system.

              1. Mike S. says:

                So You Want To Abolish Time Zones makes a pretty good case that getting rid of time zones makes it much harder, rather than easier, to coordinate time with people in faraway places.

                I want to call my Uncle Steve in Melbourne. What time is it there?

                It is 04:25 (“oh-four twenty-five”) there, same as it is here.

                Does that mean I can call him?

                I don’t know.

                Basically, if you know that it’s 3AM or 7PM in Melbourne’s time zone, you can make some presumptions– rebuttable if you know Uncle Steve works third shift or is a huge night owl, but generally reliable– about what’s a reasonable time to call.

                If you know that it’s an arbitrary time relative to Melbourne’s typical workday, you’re going to either need to do mental math or have a lookup table that’s functionally identical to a set of time zones with less ease of use. (“9PM Universal Time is roughly three hours after dawn there about now, so…”)

                1. Daemian Lucifer says:

                  In a world where text messaging(via email,skype,facebook,or any other means)is much more prevalent for long distance communication(and even short distance ever more often),thats no problem.And you already mentioned a part of one big and very common exception,third shift.So unless you know the exact working and sleeping schedule of uncle steve,leaving a message on one of his numerous social networks is much safer than just calling him out of the blue.

                  A much better case against it is the one about work time tables and our classic 5 days a week work schedule.Though that could be reworked in better ways(for example working 5 hours every day,instead of 8 hours for 5 days every week).

                  Even in the best case scenario, it is impossible to retroactively scrap time zones.
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  (I guess you’d call that “civil time disobedience”?)

                  This whole reasoning is both untrue,and detrimental.There have been many,MANY cases of stuff that have changed despite being well rooted into public consciousness.The most recent example would probably be the inclusion of cell phones and (almost complete) abolishment of land lines.It took over 15 years,and is a process that is still going on,but it is going on.Or how about the european union and the stupid euro thing thats going on?Or how about the metric system?Yeah,its quite possible to change something that “is tradition”,even though a bunch of people are adamant about keeping it “traditional”.

                  1. Corsair says:

                    Ugh, god no. God, -no- don’t do ‘work five hours every day’. Having weekends is essential. What possible benefit would be derived from working five hours every day as opposed to the current method?

                    1. Daemian Lucifer says:

                      5 hour shorter work week?

          2. Zak McKracken says:

            Well, actually the British Isles are on BST (British Summer Time) right now, which is one hour before GMT (or UTC), making it a truly awful thing compared to the latter two.

            Now, about the actual time: the post says 18:00 UST (US time, I made that up). The widget above only has a countdown, not an actual time, so that plus the current time in the UK gives me 1:00 on the 26th of September

            However, 18:00 EDT on the 25th would actually make it 23:00 on the 25th, which is just about doable for me …

            I think that I should probably trust the countdown more than the hope that UST = EDT (that’s the time zone for New York).

            Me sad now!

            1. MichaelGC says:

              Agree on BST! – I was sorta saying the same, albeit it was rather buried in a thicket of parentheses.

              UST means ‘universal standard time’, and isn’t a time as-such, but rather the blanket term for times such as GMT, and UTC. The countdown is certainly worthy of trust, as that is agnostic as to timezone – and it will indeed be 23:00 on Friday for those of us in Britain. Yay!

              1. Zak McKracken says:

                Oh crap, I failed at adding 8.5 hours to 14:30… I’lljust blame our silly time counting system ( who thoughtit’s agood idea to divide a day into 24 hours of 60 minutes? we should just use days, and millidays. One Milliday would be 1.44 minutes, 10 of them about a quarter hour… I could live with that!

                1. TMC_Sherpa says:

                  One of the books I have floating around states the Egyptians are responsible for the 24hr part and the Babylonians for the 60 minute part.

                  The Discoverers by Daniel Boorstin, I highly recommend it.

                  Oh and the French tried base 10 time for a while.

                  Sherpa

                  1. Zak McKracken says:

                    Yeah, if the French introduced it, the English would never accept it, even if named after an Englishman — see Newton … I guess if all that’s left of your empire are some silly units, that’s what you hold on to…

                    … says the guy who still routinely uses degrees for angles. Sorry dear English, we’re all creatures of habit. Annoying habits, sometimes.

                2. Mephane says:

                  If we go that far, why not the other way round? The basic time unit in the metric system is the second. So let’s treat it the same way we do, for example, meters.

                  Second, millisecond, microsecond etc. are already in use. Now we add kilosecond (~17 minutes), megasecond (~12 days), gigasecond (~32 years). There, much better. :D

                  P.S.: Something is off with the comment edit box. It seems to auto-widen to a limited extend, pushing beyond the available width of the comment column, thus scrolling the entire comment column to the right (without a visible scroll bar) and obstructing part of it.

                  1. Daemian Lucifer says:

                    Well a day is already 86,4 kiloseconds,so that conversion wouldnt be as harsh.

                    Though having to adjust that to fit in with the silly rotation and revolution of our planet would be a bit weird.I suggest slowing the earth down so that every day is 90 kiloseconds long,and every year should be 32,4 megaseconds,or full 360 rotations.Much more elegant.

                  2. Zak McKracken says:

                    Yeah, the problem is making a day and a year into some round multiple of the base unit. So, since the second is an arbitrary thing, it’d be good to use something more constant. Of course that also means redefining all of the other units which depend on it … I didn’t say it was a practically convenient proposal!

                    The next practical problem would be that a day does not always have precisely the same length, at least not to the precision required for some applications, so it’d end up being defined in a similar way as it is now (multiple of oscillation period of radiation from a certain state transition in a specific cesium isotope), only adjusted to add up to something close to the average earth rotation period.

                    For the edit box: Type until you reach the end of the line, then click and drag the bottom right corner to re-size the box.

                  3. Bubble181 says:

                    The French system used decaseconds, 10-hour days, 10-day weeks and 10-month years (I think it was 30 days to a month? I don’t remember). It worked horribly.
                    The SWATCH system – with a day split into 1000 Swatch Units – was actually fairly useable.

                    1. Zak McKracken says:

                      yeah, dates are terrible but having a decimal system which accommodates 365.25something days per year is hard, especially since 365 = 5*73, and 73 is a prime number. So the best thing you could do would be 5-day weeks and have 73 of them. Not very much better than what we have now…

                      Making a day 1000 time units, though, does sound way more practical. Never going to happen, of course…

                    2. Daemian Lucifer says:

                      Parceling a day into anything other than seconds is almost impossible because practically whole fields of physics,engineering,traffic,….all rely on seconds.Thats way harder to change than just the clocks.

                      Turning a day or year into an order of magnitude of seconds would also be difficult,because of sleep schedules and our biological clocks.But,having somewhat rounder numbers,like an hour being 7,2 ks,or 3,6 ks could be implemented into clocks,though it would look weird at first(basically,you could have a minute be 100 seconds,and an hour be 36 minutes).

    2. MichaelGC says:

      They have four: Eastern AMERICA time, Central AMERICA time, Mountain AMERICA time, and Pacific AMERICA time. So this’ll be at 16:00 Mountain AMERICA time.

      1. Groboclown says:

        Unfortunately, Arizona doesn’t follow AMERICA time (they are UTC-7h). Does that make them unAmerican? I don’t know these kinds of things. Maybe they switch back and forth between Central AMERICA time and Mountain AMERICA time.

        1. King Marth says:

          Streaming at 7pm Atlantic, 7:30pm in Newfoundland.

        2. krellen says:

          Arizona actually switches between Pacific and Mountain.

          1. Will says:

            Arizona is on Mountain Standard Time all year round. That puts them in line with Pacific Daylight Time during the DST period.

            1. krellen says:

              You and I both know that the number of people that know the difference between Standard time and Daylight time can be counted on one hand. :)

        3. Doug Sundseth says:

          That’s only sort of true. The Navajo Nation’s big reservation is mostly in AZ, and it’s on MDT. Of course the Hopi Nation’s reservation, entirely surrounded by the Navajo Nation, is on MST, like the rest of non-Navajo AZ.

          (The Hopi, as I understand it, don’t much like the Navajo/Diné.)

          1. Daemian Lucifer says:

            Its time again to repost this:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84aWtseb2-4

      2. nm says:

        Don’t forget Hawaii/Aleutian time. Hawaii doesn’t do daylight time, but Alaska does.

        I vote we get rid of standard time and all agree that seeing the sun after 4PM is a good thing.

        1. Syal says:

          If you tried that in Alaska sunrise wouldn’t be until noon.

      3. CraigM says:

        You forget Hawaii and Alaska. So in the US you can go from GMT-5 to GMT -10.

        1. MichaelGC says:

          It’s a minefield, innit! :D And EDT tends to be GMT -4 for two weeks of the year, these days. And should we include Puerto Rico (also GMT -4)?

      4. Sleeping Dragon says:

        But what’s the ‘Murica time?

        1. MichaelGC says:

          RIGHT NOW!!

      5. Hermocrates says:

        I’m running in eastern CANADA time though, so what’s my conversion?

    3. Bropocalypse says:

      Normally I’m the guy who gets annoyed when LPers miss something obvious, but when it comes to rocket science I’m just glad to see them having a good time. Probably because it’s NOT obvious. KSP is part building game, part puzzle game, much like Besiege and the more esoteric Minecraft mods.

  4. MichaelGC says:

    Would one use jet fuel in a rocket? I’ve never Kerbaled, so possibly yes, during the early disastrous stages?… Perhaps this was all explained in Footnote One! :p

    /hyperpedantanticnitpickery

    1. Bropocalypse says:

      In KSP there’s currently only one type of fuel, so yes!

      1. Trainzack says:

        I think he was talking about using the jet tanks which don’t include oxidizer, which is required for a rocket engine.

        1. MichaelGC says:

          Nothing so knowledgeable, unfortunately for me! I had it in mind that rocket fuel = solid; jet fuel = liquid, but five minutes with Wikipedia have shown, as so often, that I am wrong about that.

      2. Groboclown says:

        There’s solid rocket boosters, which don’t use standard fuel. There’s the oxidizer-required fuel, which allows burning in space, there’s the jet fuel, and there’s micro-propellant. The nuclear propulsion engine might also have an extra fuel source, but I’ve only used them once. Or maybe this is answering a question that wasn’t asked.

        1. MichaelGC says:

          Sometimes those are the best kind of answers.

        2. nm says:

          Not entirely true. There’s solid fuel, liquid fuel, oxidizer, xenon, and monopropellant.

          Solid fuel runs SRBs, which don’t need anything else but can’t be throttled down or turned off before they’re used up.

          Monopropellant has a low specific impulse but doesn’t need any oxidizer to work. It’s mostly used in reaction control thrusters for attitude control but can be used to move rockets around.

          Liquid fuel needs an oxidizer to burn. This can come in the form of the oxidizer available in the game or “IntakeAir,” which is a resource used by jet engines. There’s one engine that can use either oxidizer or IntakeAir, depending on its mode. The atomic engine in the game just uses liquid fuel.

          Xenon, which I almost forgot, is used in the ion drives as reaction mass. It’s not burned as fuel, just accelerated with an electric field and shot out the back.

          Obviously, this is a bit of a simplification from reality, where rockets and jets don’t typically run on the same fuels and there’s more than one type of liquid rocket fuel and more than one kind of oxidizer. But then, this is a game about rocket science, not actual rocket science. There are also mods galore that add new and exciting resources, and stock now includes resource harvesting and refining.

          1. Trix2000 says:

            ON THE SRB TRAIN THERE ARE NO BRAKES.

          2. Hermocrates says:

            Solid fuel runs SRBs, which don't need anything else but can't be throttled down or turned off before they're used up.

            Turned off, no, but hastily ejected in a blaze of glory is always a possibility (and the better option, in my opinion).

            1. Mephane says:

              I have the sudden urge to build a machine that consists only of SRBs and hydraulic detachment manifolds. And then set it up so that stage 1 launches the thing skyward, stage 2 detaches all the things and ingites dozens of sepatrons to initiate utter chaos of SRBS going everywhere. It could become a forum challenge, though I am not sure what exactly it is one could meaningfully measure here.

              Edit: On second thought, that has most probably already been done anyway. :D

              1. 4th Dimension says:

                Remember to angle the booster slightly so that rocket starts spinning which will cause all the components to fly apart when you release them due to centrifugal force.

    2. Zak McKracken says:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V#Stages

      TL:DR: Yes.
      The main stage of the Saturn V used basically jet fuel, which is basically Diesel.

      “basically” means of course that it’s a slightly improved mixture and refined to a much higher standard because you’d want to be really really sure the fuel’s chemical properties are very very precisely what it says on the box. or else.

      Same for jet fuel, only less so.

    3. Demo says:

      At least during earlier versions of KSP it was viable to have a first stage consisting primarily of jet engines, due to them having a negligible fuel usage compared to rocket engines and a thrust/weight ratio greater than 1 (I’m not sure of the exact number). This has probably since been broken/fixed by the introduction of a more realistic aerodynamics model.

      This could create issues with an uneven burn-out sending your rocket into a tumble and also take the part count through the roof, thus melting any computer it was running on, but it’s certainly a thing that was done.

      1. Alex says:

        I haven’t tried a hybrid rocket since 1.0 but hybrid spaceplanes still work, just not as well. My most recent playthrough used nothing but SSTO spaceplanes, using air-breathing jets for ascent, switching to rockets to escape the atmosphere and then using nukes for circularisation and orbital maneuvers.

  5. Daniel England says:

    I would recommend that Josh play through the tutorial either before or during stream, because if he doesn’t it will be, like, 3 hours of explosions and frustration.

    1. 4th Dimension says:

      Hopefully Shamus will be there to pipe in with suggestions.

      1. Daemian Lucifer says:

        No,not that,bank left!Not now,now your…wait right!Bank right!Stabilize!Too much!WHAT ARE YOU DOING JOSH?!

    2. Merlin says:

      That’s definitely a good idea. The Staging UI in particular is tiny and not-completely-intuitive but is a vital part of not exploding.

    3. eaglewingz says:

      “3 hours of explosions”

      Josh’s usual playing style, then

      1. Andy says:

        STOP EXPLODING ME!

  6. squiddlefits says:

    Okay Josh. Normally I have a “purity first” policy towards mods, but for your own sanity, install this one: http://www.curse.com/ksp-mods/kerbal/222685-kerbal-engineer-redux

    It’s the one mod that I feel should be folded into stock ksp but isn’t. It’ll save a lot on cussing and frustration.

    What it does is it shows you a lot of numbers that only become apparent during flight – such as your engine being too puny or not having enough fuel for the trip.

    (installation instructions: place the “kerbalEngineer” folder into ksp/gamedata. that’s it, you’re ready)

    1. Trix2000 says:

      Your link doesn’t quite work FYI.

      1. squiddlefits says:

        that’s, … I, … wut? Ah well, just copy-paste the thing in the thing. The url is correct is what matters.

    2. Raygereio says:

      not having enough fuel for the trip

      I maintain that you haven’t played KSP until you’ve launched your hundredth rescue-mission to Duna, because the first flight and the 98 rescue-missions previous all landed on Duna with not enough fuel to get back.

      Bonus points if your 100th mission arrives with enough fuel to get back, but breaks a landing gear the moment it touches Duna.

      1. squiddlefits says:

        My “worst” one of these recently was when I went to eeloo. I lowballed the dv by a massive amount and my landing trip ended up being a flyby mission. That was a disappointment

  7. Will Riker says:

    Oh those poor Kerbals…the KSA is going to have to stock up on caskets for this one.

  8. I hate to call for moar editing workz, but if it’s not too much trouble, may I request a highlight reel? (It’s a bit easier if you plan in advance.)

  9. SpaceSjut says:

    For the love of Jeb, record this and put it on yt. PLEASE!

    1. James Bennett says:

      I second this. I’m going to try to make time to see it, but as I have a job and a family it’s going to be tricky. If you can put it up on youtube so I can watch it at my convenience that would be awesome. I am very much looking forward to watching Josh’s rockets blow up on the launch pad.

  10. Hermocrates says:

    Oh sweet, the first hangout I’ll have been around to watch. And Josh playing KSP no less! Hopefully I can get on not too long after it starts.

  11. Steve C says:

    AMERICA TIME[2]… Where is citation [1]?

    … must … check … references … and … can’t… nooooo.

    1. Shamus says:

      That is a VERY interesting bug.

      The numbering is automatic. I have no idea why it started on 2 here. As a totally random guess, I’ll say maybe it has something to do with the popup text starting with single quotes, because that’s really rare?

      Strange.

      1. Shamus says:

        Nope. Just changed the text a few times, and this has nothing to do with quotation marks. I’m stumped.

        I’d submit a bug report, but I’m the one who wrote the plugin, so one way or another it’s my fault.

        1. Daemian Lucifer says:

          Maybe this post is somehow considered connected with the previous one for some weird reason,because that one only has [1].

        2. MichaelGC says:

          It may be something to do with whether or not the footnote occurs early enough to appear in the article’s entry on the main page. For this article, and these two:

          http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27527
          Main page: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?paged=8

          http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27866
          Main page: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?paged=6

          the first note shows as [1] on the main page, and [2] in the article itself.

          However, it’s not as simple as that, because why would it be? This one right below Kerbal has an early-enough footnote which is displaying as [1] both times:

          http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=28661

          Same deal here:

          http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27749
          Main page: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?paged=7

          (These ones where it’s operating as you’d expect are both Experienced Points articles – that can’t have anything to do with it …. can it?)

          (Edit – one thing the EP articles have in common is a very early hyperlink before the first footnote, so I guess that’s more likely to be playing a role than just the fact that it’s an EP page!)

          1. MichaelGC says:

            Well, there goes that theory (three hyperlinks before the footnote, but it still misbehaves):

            http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=26737

            (PS I’m replying to a comment awaiting moderation due to all the slurs and namecalling hyperlinks; hence apparent giant non-sequitur!)

  12. Dt3r says:

    I appear to be located in [City id not valid]. I guess not even my computer wants to admit to being in NJ.

    1. Bubble181 says:

      Same here. It displays fine at home but my work blocks location detection.

    2. Eric Meyer says:

      Ditto. Source spelunking reveals that the iframe that contains the clock loads a Flash widget, so if you have Flash blocked, you get “City id not valid”. Instead of, you know, “This clock uses Flash and you seem to have it blocked” or even “Flash is required for this clock because Javascript was somehow too hard and anyway we like encouraging people to keep open security holes”.

      (Ahem. Sorry about that.)

      1. Daemian Lucifer says:

        Ugh,how much longer will we have to endure flash?It needs to die.Painfully.

  13. James says:

    City ID not found? what do I not exist? OH MY GOD WHAT IF I DON”T EXIST!

  14. pranav says:

    would you post a video or something because i don’t think i would be able to make it(i am in india and it would happen at around 3 am)
    side note:please place this comment box on top of the comments

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